The 24 Elders

Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church.

I believe the 24 elders could be angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

On what basis are the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 considered to be the church but all the Christians in Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, and 20:4 are not?

In the pre-trib view, where are all the other people in the church in Revelation 4-5? If there can be 100,000,000 angels mentioned about the throne (Revelation 5:11), why would only 24 church elders be mentioned?

Why aren't the elders at the marriage, or the supper that many say lasts the entire seven years? Do they miss the entire marriage and supper? For we see them repeatedly throughout the tribulation chapters (Revelation 7:11, 11:16, 14:3) and never is there any reference to either the marriage or the supper.

In the pre-trib view, how long before the tribulation must the rapture come in order that the judgment might be completed before the tribulation begins?

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24 OT Priests?

Note that the reference to "24 elders" is unique to the book of Revelation, which doesn't say that the 24 elders are OT priests, or even men, and doesn't show the 24 elders performing the animal sacrifices which were the function of the OT priests.

Note that there are no OT verses which refer to "24 elders," or which show 24 OT priests sitting on thrones and wearing crowns and playing harps and singing about the blood of Christ redeeming people from all nations.

Note that neither 1 Chronicles 24 nor 1 Chronicles 25 refer to "elders." 1 Chronicles 24 refers only to the 24 "divisions of the sons of Aaron" (1 Chronicles 24:1), and 1 Chronicles 25 refers only to another 24 divisions of "the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps" (1 Chronicles 25). So we have references to two different sets of 24 divisions, but we don't have any reference to 24 "elders" in these two chapters, nor do any other chapters in the OT ever refer to "24 elders."

Why do some believe that 1 Chronicles 24 must be referring to the 24 elders in Revelation, but that 1 Chronicles 25 must not be referring to them? Aren't those in 1 Chronicles 25 singers with harps (1 Chronicles 25:6-7), just as the 24 elders in Revelation are singers with harps (Revelation 5:8-9)? If those in 1 Chronicles 25 don't have to be the 24 elders, then on what basis do those in 1 Chronicles 24 have to be them?

Is there a specific verse which says that either the 24 OT "divisions" in 1 Chronicles 24 or the 24 OT divisions in 1 Chronicles 25 wear crowns or sit on thrones?

In the pre-trib dispensational view, does OT Israel receive rewards promised to the church? Does the OT promise believers crowns and thrones?

In the pre-trib dispensational view, will the former OT priests be resurrected with the bride, raptured with the bride, judged with the bride, and rewarded with the bride, but then all of a sudden be shut out of the marriage of the bride and the supper of the bride? On what basis?

In the pre-trib dispensational view, wouldn't 24 OT priests of Israel saying "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9) be the mixing up of two dispensations at the same time?

"The church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28); "Being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" (Romans 5:9).

Where are all the rest of the OT priests, and where are all the rest of the former OT (now NT) saints? If there can be 100,000,000 angels mentioned about the throne (Revelation 5:11), why would only 24 OT priests be mentioned?

DID NOT MINISTER ALL AT THE SAME TIME

I believe the 24 courses of priests instituted in David's time (1 Chronicles 24) did not minister all at the same time, but each ministered for only about two-weeks out of the year, one after the other in their order (1 Chronicles 24:19), just as the 12 courses of army captains (1 Chronicles 27) each served for only one month out of the year, one after the other in their order. Note that Zacharias was of the eighth course listed in 1 Chronicles 24, and it shows him ministering only for a set time: "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia... And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course... that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house" (Luke 1:5,8,23).

I believe the 24 elders are individual angelic rulers that all minister at the same time, and have been worshipping the Lord continually for untold ages along with the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:9-11).

In the pre-trib view, will the Feast of Tabernacles be fulfilled before the tribulation? Will the "10 days of awe" and the Day of Atonement that must come before the Feast of Tabernacles already be past?

ZECHARIAH 3

Does Zechariah 3 refer to 24 men or to "elders"?

Note that the Hebrew word translated "fellows" in Zechariah 3:8 is translated "neighbour" in Zechariah 3:10, and the Hebrew word translated "sit" in Zechariah 3:8 is translated "dwell" in Zechariah 8:4, so that those "fellows sitting before" Joshua (the same name as Jesus) could at the time the verse was spoken have been all those "neighbours dwelling before" Joshua, that is, all of OT Israel, an entire "kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Exodus 19:6); and Zechariah 3:8 could be referring prophetically to all of us believers, "a royal priesthood, an holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9), all "them that dwell before the LORD" (Isaiah 23:18).

SANHEDRIN?

How many elders did the Jewish Sanhedrin (council) have? What verse refers to "the heavenly Sanhedrin (council)" or requires that it be made up of men?

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Angels?

Note that the reference to "24 elders" is unique to the book of Revelation.

Note that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing they are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); compare this with Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." I believe the 24 elders are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Note that the same Hebrew word translated "chief" in Daniel 10:13 to describe ruling angels is translated "elder" in 2 Chronicles 22:1 (Young's Literal Translation and Darby Translation), so that by Hebrew dictionary definition, we can read Daniel 10:13 as referring to "elder" angels. The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

WHY NOT SEEN IN OT?

This could be for the same reason we never actually see the seven spirits before the throne in heaven before Revelation 4. Revelation truly is a "revelation" of a great many things not seen before.

SEEN ONLY AFTER THE RAPTURE?

Note that no verse teaches a pre-trib rapture, or requires that the 24 elders weren't already in heaven before Revelation 1-3. John doesn't see the 24 elders or the throne of God or the seven spirits before the throne or the four beasts or the 100 million angels or hear every creature in heaven and earth (Revelation 4-5) until after the last letter, to Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22). How does this require that all of these things were pre-trib raptured?

"ELDER" ANGELS?

Angels could be referred to as "elders" because it's a job title for anyone in a position of authority (Acts 14:23; 1 Timothy 5:17), and angels too have their "chief" princes (Daniel 10:13). Note that the same Hebrew word translated "chief" in Daniel 10:13 to describe ruling angels is translated "elder" in 2 Chronicles 22:1 (Young's Literal Translation and Darby Translation), so that by Hebrew dictionary definition, we can read Daniel 10:13 as referring to "elder" angels.

I don't believe angels age as unresurrected men do, but that "elders" can simply refer to those in a position of authority, for just as the 24 "elders" would not have to age if they were resurrected men, "for in the resurrection they... are as the angels of God in heaven" (Matthew 22:30) and "neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels" (Luke 20:36), so the 24 "elders" would not have to age as unresurrected men do if they were angels.

I believe that just as the exact same Hebrew word is used to describe elder sons in 2 Chronicles 22:1 and ruling angels in Daniel 10:13, so the exact same Greek word is used to describe an elder son in Luke 15:25 and ruling angels in Revelation 4:4.

Note that I don't have to modify the definition of "elder," "a term of rank or office," to say "a term of rank or office applicable to humans only and in no way can it ever be applicable to angels."

Note that there's no reference to angels in the definition of "chief" in Daniel 10:13, yet it's still applied to angels.

Note that the contexts of Daniel 10:13 and Revelation 4:4 don't forbid that they be referring to "elder" angels.

Note that angels are also sons, of God (Job 1:6, 38:7), and some angels could have been created before others and given authority over others.

When people in Biblical times referred to those who held positions of authority as "elders," I believe they did so probably because those who held such positions of authority were usually elders in age, just as when people refer to two concepts as being "married," they do so because they see the concepts as being as connected as married people usually are. But no doubt there were elders who had authority over people elder than they, just as there are married people who are separated.

THE 4 BEASTS

I believe the 24 "elders" in Revelation refers to 24 angelic rulers in heaven, just as the 4 "beasts" in Revelation refers to 4 angelic creatures in heaven. Where does the Greek word for "beasts" ever refer in the Bible to anything but earthly animals except in Revelation?

I believe that the four "beasts" are angels, and that John simply used the word "beasts" to describe them because they look "like" animals (Revelation 4:7), not because they literally are animals, just as the Bible can refer to an angel as a "man" (e.g. Daniel 9:21, Judges 13:9-11, Daniel 8:15-16) because that's what angels can look like, not because they literally are men.

PROOF?

Note that my point is not to prove that the 24 elders are angels, only to show that they could be angels.

Note that while the Bible does show us what is in heaven in Revelation 4-5, it doesn't say "The 24 elders that are in heaven are men" or "The 24 elders that are in heaven are angels."

Note that the Bible sometimes refers to things without giving us full (or sometimes any) knowledge of them. For example, what were "those things which the seven thunders uttered" (Revelation 10:4)? What were "the doctrine" and "the deeds of the Nicolaitanes" (Revelation 2:6, 15)?

Using the same standard you apply to the scriptures I've shown, can you specifically indicate which scriptures you believe "prove" that the 24 "divisions" in 1 Chronicles 24 are the 24 "elders" in Revelation 4?

NOT A POSSIBILITY?

Using the same standard you apply to the scriptures and dictionary definition that I've shown above, can you specifically indicate which scriptures you believe show the possibility that those in 1 Chronicles 24 wear crowns or sit on thrones?

SEPARATE FROM THE ANGELS

Note that John's referring to angels separate from the 24 elders doesn't require that the elders not be angels, just as his referring to the four beasts separate from the 24 elders doesn't require that the four beasts not be angels. What if I said "I went into a church and up on the stage I saw two pastors sitting on chairs and an organist over on the side, and down in the pews there were about 20 people." Would my description require that the pastors and the organist weren't people?

ALL THE ANGELS

Note that Satan "and his angels" (Revelation 12:9) are most likely not worshipping God in Revelation 7:11, so there are other angels, fallen or unfallen, who aren't part of "all the angels" around the 24 elders, and these could include the unfallen 24 elders themselves.

Note that neither the subject nor the context of the phrase "all the angels" in Revelation 7:11 requires that the 24 elders not be angels, just as neither the subject nor the context of the phrase "all the people" in Mark 11:18, Luke 20:6, Acts 3:11, and Hebrews 9:19 requires that the scribes and chief priests and Peter and John and the lame man and Moses not be people.

Note that just as other "angels" aren't expressly referred to in the context of Revelation 7:11, so other "people" aren't expressly referred to in the context of Mark 11:18, Luke 20:6, Acts 3:11, and Hebrews 9:19, even though the scribes and chief priests and Peter and John and the lame man and Moses are indeed people.

Note that the only time people are referred to in Mark 11:18, Luke 20:6, Acts 3:11, and Hebrews 9:19 is by the designation "all the people." And the designation of "all the people" is distinguished from the scribes and chief priests and Peter and John and the lame man and Moses. For this reason, do you believe the scribes and chief priests and Peter and John and the lame man and Moses are not people?

In your view, can the "mighty angel" of Revelation 10 not be an angel because John didn't make the mistake of falling down to worship him?

Note that the same Greek word for "all" is used in Mark 11:18, Luke 20:6, Acts 3:11, and Hebrews 9:19 that is used in Revelation 7:11.

Does it say "all without exception"? Do Mark 11:18, Luke 20:6, Acts 3:11, and Hebrews 9:19 say "all without exception"?

Weren't the chief priests in Luke 20:6, and Peter and John and the lame man in Acts 3:11 also people in the temple (Luke 20:1, Acts 3:8)?

AROUND THRONE

Note that angels are around the throne (Revelation 5:11).

NUMBERED

Note that angels are numbered (Revelation 5:11, John 20:12).

MICHAEL

Note that Michael is referred to as an "arch" angel in Jude 1:9, just as he is referred to as a "chief" (or "elder") prince in Daniel 10:13, for the definition of "archangel" is a "chief" angel. But I don't believe that for this reason Michael himself has to be one of the 24 "throne" or "elder" angels around God's throne. He could be a ruling elder within the archangel rank, while the 24 around God's throne are ruling elders within the throne rank.

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Crowns

"Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10). In the pre-trib view, will there be only 24 people in the church who will be "faithful unto death"?

Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church, or that only men wear crowns: if the locusts wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), and the devil wears 7 crowns (Revelation 12:3), then I believe angelic princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) wear crowns, just as human princes do.

Note that not only men wear victory crowns (stephanos): if the locusts wear victory crowns (stephanos, Revelation 9:7), then I believe angels wear victory crowns, for they too have their victories (for example, Daniel 10:13, 20; Revelation 12:7-9).

Note that it says "as it were crowns LIKE GOLD" (Revelation 9:7), for they are spiritual gold, which is transparent, as the streets of gold in New Jerusalem are "gold, AS IT WERE transparent glass" (Revelation 21:21). So I believe the "as it were" relates to the gold, not the crowns, just as "their faces WERE AS the faces of men" doesn't mean they didn't have faces, but that they weren't men.

What requires the unfallen angels ever be judged, and what would prevent them from receiving rewards for good works ages ago?

Angels could cast down their crowns in praise: "Praise ye him, all his angels" (Psalm 148:2).

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Thrones

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne" (Revelation 3:21). In the pre-trib view, will there be only 24 people in the church who will "overcome"?

Note that the 24 elders are not seated in Jesus' throne, but on 24 seats (thrones) arrayed around Jesus' throne: "Round about the throne were four and twenty seats (thrones): and upon the seats (thrones) I saw four and twenty elders sitting" (Revelation 4:4).

The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

I believe when Paul refers to "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16) that he is referring to angelic hierarchies, "the principalities and powers in heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10, compare Ephesians 6:12).

Note that even a modern English dictionary defines thrones as "the third group of angels, ranking after the Seraphim and Cherubim, in the first circle of the traditional Christian hierarchy" (from http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=thrones ), "in the first hierarchy... the Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones; in the second, the Dominations, Virtues, and Powers; in the third, the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels" (from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm ).

Was there no Christianity on the earth before Protestantism? Are there no Christians in the Catholic church?

If you look at the Greek definition of "throne," does it say "those in 1 Chronicles 24" or "a rank of OT priests"?

Satan has a throne that he sits on: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" (Isaiah 14:13); "thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is" (Revelation 2:13). In Revelation 2:13, the Greek work translated "seat" to refer to the throne of Satan is thronos, the same word translated "seats" to refer to the thrones of the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4).

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The Song

"Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" (Revelation 5:9). In the pre-trib view, will there be only 24 people in the church who will be "redeemed to God by thy blood"?

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God (Revelation 5:8-9)?

Note that it doesn't say the beasts don't have any hands. I believe that the beasts with six wings who cry "Holy, holy, holy" in Revelation 4:8 are the same as the seraphims with six wings who cry "Holy, holy, holy" in Isaiah 6:2-3, who at first are not described as having any hands, but later in Isaiah 6:6 we see that they do indeed have hands.

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White Clothing

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment" (Revelation 3:5). In the pre-trib view, will there be only 24 people in the church who will "overcome"?

Note that angels can also be described as wearing white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12), so the description of the 24 elders doesn't require they be men.

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Bodies

Note that angels can also be described as having bodies wearing white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12), so the description of the 24 elders doesn't require they be resurrected men.

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John's "Brethren"?

Note that in Revelation 19:10, John is speaking to the same angel as Revelation 22:8-9. In both places the angel is saying that he is the fellowservant of John and the fellowservant of John's brethren (compare Hebrews 1:14).

Note that the same Greek word used to refer to angels "ministering" to Jesus (Matthew 4:11) is used to describe someone "serving" Jesus (John 12:26).

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100,000,000 Angels = The Church?

Note that it doesn't say that the 100,000,000 angels (Revelation 5:11) are the church or that they are men.

Note the Bible keeps men and angels as separate groups: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" (1 Corinthians 6:3); "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5); "The tabernacle of God is with men" (Revelation 21:3); "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels" (Colossians 2:18); "The tongues of men and of angels" (1 Corinthians 13:1); "To angels, and to men" (1 Corinthians 4:9).

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12 Apostles & 12 Sons Of Israel?

If the 24 elders include the 12 apostles of Christ and the 12 sons of Israel, why doesn't John recognize any of them, not even himself among them, when he even knew that it was Moses and Elijah who appeared at the transfiguration (Mark 9:2-4)?

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Elders and Money in the Church

Some teach that eldership is evil, but eldership is not evil in itself (1 Timothy 5:17-19, 1 Thessalonians 5:12-15). Jesus sets people over his church (1 Corinthians 12:28; Luke 6:13; Matthew 24:45, 19:28; Acts 14:23).

Some say we can't have elders because Jesus doesn�t treat us differently and we are all one body, but these things aren't mutually exclusive (Acts 10:34, 1 Corinthians 12:25-28).

Some say the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes (Revelation 2:15) was the doctrine that teaches elders rule over laity, when actually it was probably named after Nicolas and was the doctrine of a sect which ate things sacrificed to idols and committed fornication.

Some say the church should not use money in any way, but service to Christ is not antithetical to the use of any money (Matthew 17:27, Luke 22:36, John 4:8, Acts 4:34-35).

Some teach that the scriptures are wrong in what they say about elders and money, but such teachers have set themselves above the Apostles of Christ, having "gone beyond what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

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Revelation 5:13

Will no creature be groaning and travailing in pain (Romans 8:22) during the tribulation? Isn't the vail of suffering not lifted off the earth until after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:7-9)?

Does anything in Romans 8:21-23 suggest only a temporary deliverance for all of creation from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God at the redemption of our bodies?